Should English be the "Official" Language of the US?

[chelseachick69]

Originally Posted by vbad

Thanks for the corrections LTR. Seedy, I don't know if I'd be quite so quick to call it racism and hypocrisy. I'm not sure that's what it is. I think there's a legitimate concern about integrating immigrants into our society. I think a lot of people feel it's gotten out of control and now they're looking to find a quick fix. And as we all know quick fixes aren't always well thought out. But on the other hand - just because it's a "quick fix" doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong either.

I am personally torn. I don't really have a problem with a law saying English is the official language, because as LTR informed us - it's not really going to have that much effect. But I think the biggest effect it will have is it will give newly-arrived immigrants an additional incentive to learn English - better.

I'm frankly fed up with retail help that can't speak enough English to even do their jobs. Why they put people who don't speak a lick of English on the front lines to work with customers is beyond me. I called the dry cleaners the other day to request a pick up of some clothing. When the guy arrived I told him "these shirts for dry cleaning, and these - regular". He then pointed to the correct shirts and said "dry cleaning", and the other set of shirts and said "regular". I said yes.

I always test them to make sure they confirm that they understand me. And he didn't have any problem with that. Then I said, "I need these back tomorrow afternoon." He then looked at me and said, "okay, tomorrow after 5".

The next day when I called they said they wouldn't be ready until "tomorrow" - i.e. one day late. I said I specifically requested for them to be ready today and they said, "no, the guy marked them for tomorrow."

We then got into a bit of an argument about it. The upshot was - they blamed his lack of English for the problem. (theirs wasn't much better)! But I told them he clearly understood me, because he repeated to me what I had said. She just said "no, he did not understand." I think he understood and just made a mistake. But in many cases they really don't understand.

I spent 2 minutes on the phone with the deli recently ordering a "jar of peanut butter". They guy had no idea what "jar" was and he wasn't too swift on "peanut butter" either!

It was really madening. "Ok, 'bottle' of peanut putter". "Oh, bottle, yes bottle. I understand now. So bottle of what?"

I think the rest of America has just begun to experience these frustrations that we in NYC have always lived with, as more non-English speakers move out into the hinterlands. And I think they're getting fed up with the frustrations of it. It's something New Yorkers will put up with, but not something the rest of America would so easily put up with.

It's possible some racism is involved, but that's a pretty heavy charge, when there are surely other legitimate reasons why people might want to see such a law passed.

I tend to lean pretty much toward alexismckinnon's approach. I don't really care what people speak. But there should be a "public" language that all Americans are required to know and use whenever they're not around "their own".

I concur with VBad. He just about said everything I have been thinking or have experienced. I really do not have a problem with being bi-lingual; since, I am bi-lingual. What I do have a problem with, is that in quite a few instances and I've learned this from listening to folks who have gone through this on a daily basis, some of the immigrants particularly the "illegal" immigrants are so intimidated by just being here. A lot of people I've met explain (mostly in Spanish. That's my second language), that fear of being judged or looked upon as losers, users and abusers if you will allow, and just prefer to remain anonymous. Now, I'm not speaking for everyone, I'm just letting y'all know what I've heard from some immigrants. However, I must reiterate that VBad and I have experienced the same frustration in dealing with folks who do not speak English. And frankly, I just wish that whatever language is to be determined as the so-called "Mother Tongue" will be a welcoming ideology and not a form of exclusion and difficult to understand. That's just one woman's opinion.

[seedyonenyc]

I'd be very interested to hear how establishing a "Mother Tongue" could be anything BUT exclusionary.

CD
NYC

[virtualpleasure]

Originally Posted by seedyonenyc

I'd be very interested to hear how establishing a "Mother Tongue" could be anything BUT exclusionary.

CD
NYC

Clearly, there is a sense by which unity and affiliation is inspired by the ability to communicate in the same language, I daresay.

[chelseachick69]

Originally Posted by seedyonenyc

I'd be very interested to hear how establishing a "Mother Tongue" could be anything BUT exclusionary.

CD
NYC

Our country's primary language is English. Perhaps the words "Mother Tongue" are not the right words. What I mean is that I agree that there really should be a universal language at least here in the States. It really is difficult to learn English so I've been told, but this is the primary language based on the Founders of this country. To me it would be like moving to a foreign country and not at least trying to learn their primary language be it French, Spanish, whatever. I just think that if you want to live in the United States and English has already been determined to be the primary language (like it or not), no matter how hard it is to learn, you should try to learn it. It is the language most of us who were born here speak and I think we'd all (immigrants and Americans), would probably get along much better living together. Listen. I love the fact that I am bi-lingual. I think there is nothing cooler than being able to speak another language (Spanish). It's part of my heritage. Isn't it possible that folks who want to come here and live might feel the same way to some degree? I mean without losing their identity and rich cultural backgrounds? That to me isn't exclusionary. It's enriching.

[Naiad]

My experience has been that people not fluent in English are often treated more shabbily than native speakers. In order to integrate in this society, children should be encouraged to speak and write English correctly. I don't think Robert Menedez would have gone this far without his command of it... So, I say, English with all its variations as the lingua franca, plus any other language one speaks, writes, loves or dreams in.
Parlez-vous francais?
Sprachen Sie Deutsch?
Hablas Espanol? etc. etc.

[seedyonenyc]

English is without question the language spoken by a majority of the people of the US.

Anyone who wishes to succeed on virtually any level will have to learn to communicate in the tongue of the majority.

Hispanics are overtaking African Americans as the largest minority group in the US. The cumulative group known presently as the “Minority” is growing at a fast rate than the “Majority”.

All this hallow clap trap about which should be the “National Language”, coupled with the recent failure of Congress to renew the “Voters Rights Act”, will result in the suppression of the ability of those that will be the new Majority from being able to participate in unhindered in the election process.

Once an “Official Language” is established and the Federal laws outlawing separate “States Rights” regarding voter requirements lapse you don’t need a weatherman to see which way the wind blows.

Yes all members of any society should be ‘encouraged’ to become a part of the community by learning the language of the community, but the cultural demographic of this society has always been in a state of flux and language is a living breathing entity. Any attempt to stifle either one goes against the principles on which this country was founded.

Why is it that those that love to shout, “free market forces will cure all”, refuse to let that happen in cases like this? If someone can improve their lot in life by speaking the language of the land in which they live, they will. The market will force the change.

There is no need for legislation.

CD

[vbad]

Gosh, that's such bizarre logic I'm having trouble even following it! Are you saying that since Hispanics are growing faster than African Americans as a group and may some day be in the majority that we should all start learning Spanish now? And that Spanish should become the official language of the US!??? I hope I've misunderstood you somewhere along the way, but that's my take on what you've said. I believe that when newcomers come into a country it is THEY who should integrate THEMSELVES into the country they have CHOSEN to move to. Not the other way around. I don't see why we English-speakers should have to integrate ourselves into them! (And don't get me wrong, I have absolutely nothing against immigrants - I actually believe in OPEN immigration - with as few restrictions as possible. And I speak Spanish fluently by the way. Something I've chosen to do so I can have more opportunities to relate to more people. I just don't think we should be REQUIRED to learn Spanish - which you seem to be suggesting in some way).

Any attempt to stifle the the use of English goes against the principles on which this country was founded? Bizarre! I never would have interpreted the founding principles that way.

I'll tell you what these kinds of ideas do to real people. They HURT real people. I have a friend who grew up in the Dominican Republic until she was 14. She came here at 14 and was put into a bi-lingual program because they said it would be unfair to put her in all English classes since she didn't yet speak any English. So they forced her to sit in all-Spanish classes - against her family's will. She now expresses nothing but anger at this program and the way it held her back from learning English and how her lack of better English now holds her back in her career.

So you see - with all the good intentions that I know people who think like you have - your well-intended thinking does nothing but hurt people in the end. When you go on with these overly-intellectualized ivory tower platitudes about how establishing an "official" language goes against the principles on which this country was founded (as if somehow we were founded on principles that wanted to hold back minorities), you seem to overlook the real effect your policies would have on real people.

With your I think mis-placed concern over how a single-language of English would adversely effect the founding principles of the country - you completely overlook the fact that an official English language policy would encourage and motivate newcomers to learn English in a way that they are not currently motivated. You say that of course "all members of any society should be 'encouraged' to learn the language of the community", but then you oppose any governmental attempt to do just that!

Don't you understand that making English the "official" lingua franca of the land - that that is the only way government can 'encourage' people to learn it. (And I'm not sure why you put 'encourage' in quotes. I think people really should be encouraged - not just semi-"encouraged").

[vbad]

By the way whoever said making English the official language of the country is exclusionary - that's crazy! How in the world can it be exclusionary to say we want to be able to communicate with you. It is in fact exclusionary to say "speak your own language - don't worry about us". Because that in fact insures that most people won't be able to understand most other people. Then all the Hispanics get excluded into a Spanish-only group, all the Americans get excluded into an English-only group and all the other various minorities get excluded into even smaller groups of the languages that only they speak.

Does anyone ever think before they go about regurgitating these silly cliches - like it would be exclusionary to ask people to speak English! Don't you see that in fact just the opposite is true. We're saying we want to include everyone by insisting that everyone speaks the same language and can be understood by everyone else.

It is exclusionary my friend, to put people into small language-based groups where only the people in their small group can understand them. That is exclusionary. THINK before you speak!!

And - CC69 - I completely agree with you on everything you said! And by the way, I don't see anything wrong with using the expression "mother tongue". English is in fact the mother tongue of the U.S. So, no reason why that souldn't be said.

[seedyonenyc]

Let me try this again.

I will not confuse the issue by stating what I did not say, but I will rephrase my thought.

1) Presently the language of the Majority in the U.S. is English, therefore it is our ?National Language?

2) People of color are outpacing the racial white Majority.

3) Hispanics are the fastest growing segment of the colored Minority.

4) Therefore, if current trends continue, not only will people of color become the Majority in the U.S., but by extending the timeline, eventually people of Hispanics ancestry will become the Majority and following that Asians will supplant the Hispanic populace.

5) Be good to all your minority friends because sooner or later we all get to be one.

Your example of the misguided attempt to ?help? your friend acclimate with a bi-lingual education is part of what I?m driving at. If she was left to her own devices, she may have had to repeat a grade in school, but that would probably have motivated her to learn English that much quicker.

Allow me to regurgitate another silly and perhaps quaint clich?, which I hope isn?t too intellectual for you:

1) In the Preamble of the Declaration of Independence it states that ?We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.?

2) So there is no mistake, I will reiterate by paraphrasing: All men?unalienable rights?Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

3) Making one language more ?official? than another in a multicultural and thereby multilingual society such as ours, will deny unfettered access to their unalienable rights. Drivers? license, home owning, voting, medical care, etc. can then require certain ?official language? requirements and leave some people out.

People who cross national and cultural boundaries usually do so in the pursuit of happiness, some for liberty and, I think it?s safe to assume, all for a better life. By insisting that they ?speak the language? is to deny them that which is inalienable.

There are those that would deny others these rights and it is that mean spirited, Un-American mindset which is behind this hollow self-serving non-issue.

We do not need an ?Official' language, we have one, capitalism. Those that come here to make a better life for themselves and their families know full well that in order to do so, optimally, they need to speak the language. Money talks; BS walks. (Clich? #2)

Case in point:
The guys that own & operate the bodega at 8th & 21 St. are from Yemen. They opened a business in the U.S., so they knew they would have to know some English, but when they got here, to this neighborhood, half the residents are more comfortable speaking Spanish, so the Yemenis quickly learned the words to make their customers feel the most comfortable in Spanish. So now those guys can converse in Yemeni to each other, English to me & Spanish to the guy on line in front of me. For them the ?Official language? was English, because that was where the money was, but Spanish is just as ?official? because there?s money there too. The government, in this case, has been reduced to supplying fresh bills of currency when the old ones wear out, taxes and a lottery machine.

As for the use of the expression of ?Mother Tongue?:
English is the ?mother tongue? of most native-born Americans and it is also considered the ?national language? of the U.S.
The term ?mother tongue? applies to individuals not nations.

CD

PS VBAD-I welcome questions if you have missed my point or if you disagree, but when you start your comments by saying ??I?m having trouble following it?? it seems pretty silly for you to prattle on at such length criticizing what you can?t comprehend and makes your advice to ?think before I speak? seem even sillier than it is.

[vbad]

CD - you know what, I've really had it with your snotty attitude. I don't like your your tone and I especially don't like your condescending way of talking to me and others that I've noticed you being this same way with. And I certainly don't need you to call me stupid by saying things like "which I hope isn’t too intellectual for you". When you decide to be courteous and respectful I may re-join this conversation. But until then... see ya