Should English be the "Official" Language of the US?

[vbad]

I'm curious how Chelseans compare to the rest of the country on the question of whether English should be legally made the official language of the US. And give your thoughts here.

[seedyonenyc]

What a narrow minded idea.

CD

Guess how I voted?

[LongTime Resident]

I thought it already was the "official" language. Do we really need a law for that?

[vbad]

No, it's not the "official" language. It's the most commonly used language, but there is no statute or Constitutional principle that actually makes it law that English is the official language.

So, in other words, if states and localities, and the Federal government for that matter feel the need they can print official documents in any number of languages. That's why you can see ballots in Spanish or Chinese. That's why when you call government offices, they may have several different languages available for you to choose.

Proponents of an English as the Official Language law say that we need to codify it in law so that the nation doesn't gradually descend into a morass of a thousand minorities - each with their own language. They also say that if someone wants to be a citizen of this country and vote and do other things, they should do it in English, as the nation's common langauge. How else can we be a cohesive community if we're speaking 50 different languages?

Opponents say basically, what does it matter if someone speaks English and someone else speaks Spanish? It's been happening for years and there don't seem to be any ill effects. Some also claim that it's racist to insist that everyone speak English in their official dealings with government. And others like our very own seedyone - say it's narrow minded. They also say, why shouldn't the government make official communications available in all the languages that people speak? We can't stop immigration and we can't force people to become fluent in English overnight. So, in order for society to run smoothly, things should be made available in the most commonly spoken American langauges.

Keep in mind though that no one is talking about "outlawing" what language people speak among themselves. This law would only concern the language of official governmental communications. It has nothing to do with what people actually speak. It wouldn't outlaw for instance, Spanish Television or Radio.

An English-only law would basically prevent government from producing any documents in any language other than English. It would prevent bi-lingual education as well, among other things. Basically everything that government does would have to be only in English.

Without the law, billions are spent each year making everything from documents to education available in a multitude of languages.

[seedyonenyc]

IMHO all languages are ?organic? in as much as they are constantly evolving. Words & phrases are introduced, flourish & expire.

Which particular ?brand? of English would be the ?legal? one? I once ordered tea in a diner in Delaware, not that far from here & was given iced tea. If you ask for a hero sandwich in upper New England you would have to explain what you wanted & then you would be told that?s called a grinder.

From a review of ?Do You Speak American?? by Robert MacNeil, William Cran

?From Publishers Weekly
The English language is not a thing but a process, not an archaic institution but an experiment that is constantly evolving and re-invigorating itself. According to language experts MacNeil and Cran, no one should understand this better than Americans who, steeped in a culture of diversity, are uniquely equipped to appreciate the exciting, colorful and democratic nature of language. Although not all Americans appreciate this vibrancy-many prominent linguists are found bemoaning the state of English, horrified that people still do not understand the difference between who and whom-the evidence of an ever-changing language is indisputable, from the New York Times printing the word "sleazoid" in a column to the Oxford English Dictionary adding "blogger" to its latest edition. To better understand the diversity of American English, the authors embark on a fascinating journey across the United States, studying the conversations of Boston natives and rural Texans, inner-city blacks and valley-girl teenagers. The result is an exhilarating celebration of the ways that Americans express themselves and a testament to the indestructible power of language, whether one is using "correct" grammar or not. Traditional linguists might not approve of the way modern Americans are talking, but they will never be able to stop the English language from moving forward and, as this book successfully proves, there is nothing more American than that.
Copyright ? Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.?

As a New Yorker I realize that we are forced to be much more cosmopolitan in our outlook & acceptance level which I believe works to our advantage. Anything that makes the unfamiliar familiar empowers us.

As for government forms, etc.: As long as this economy depends on a larger work force than it can produce, people from other lands will be needed. The jobs that they will be filling are not those that require very much formal education. To the contrary, jobs that require skills & degrees are being closely guarded. Ask anyone that has worked in a large international company here in the US & they all know stories of very talented, well educated foreign workers that were forced to leave because their visas could not be extended. It?s only the lower tier that is unprotected.

That said, it would appear that a willingness to bring in under educated workers that would be disenfranchised from participating in day to day activities in their own communities seems not only mean spirited but down right hostile.

There seems to be a lot of effort lately to exclude. I wonder who is responsible for that? Are we giving yet more ground to the terrorists?

Bottom line is that the implied intimidation of such a ?law? is un-American by my standards.

Mine is a welcoming country. How about you?

CD

[alexismckinnon]

I think it's a good idea to have one or two major languages--official, if you will. It gives people a common tongue to communicate.

You can do that and still preserve individual cultural identity. In India, for instance, there are something like 44 language groups and more individual languages. But almost everyone is billingual and speaks Hindi to some degree, so there can be communication across cultural barriers. Same thing in China--there are many languages spoken but most folks also know Mandarin and/or Cantonese. Belgium--you learn both Flemish and French in school, so even if one is your mother tongue, you have a command of the other. South Africa--11 national languages, but most documents are printed in English, Afrikaans, Xhosa and Zulu, and most everyone knows one or more of those. Spain--lots of different languages in that country, some from totally different linguistic groups, but again, everyone also knows Castillian so they can travel out of their region.


The point is, people speak whatever they want on their own time, have their own language in their cultural identity, books, TV channels, schools, communities--but they also have a lingua franca so they can communicate. Everyone needs to be on the same page. I'm fine with it being English.

[LongTime Resident]

Originally Posted by vbad

So, in other words, if states and localities, and the Federal government for that matter feel the need they can print official documents in any number of languages. That's why you can see ballots in Spanish or Chinese. That's why when you call government offices, they may have several different languages available for you to choose.

Proponents of an English as the Official Language law say that we need to codify it in law so that the nation doesn't gradually descend into a morass of a thousand minorities - each with their own language. They also say that if someone wants to be a citizen of this country and vote and do other things, they should do it in English, as the nation's common langauge. How else can we be a cohesive community if we're speaking 50 different languages?

Opponents say basically, what does it matter if someone speaks English and someone else speaks Spanish? It's been happening for years and there don't seem to be any ill effects. Some also claim that it's racist to insist that everyone speak English in their official dealings with government. And others like our very own seedyone - say it's narrow minded. They also say, why shouldn't the government make official communications available in all the languages that people speak? We can't stop immigration and we can't force people to become fluent in English overnight. So, in order for society to run smoothly, things should be made available in the most commonly spoken American langauges.

An English-only law would basically prevent government from producing any documents in any language other than English. It would prevent bi-lingual education as well, among other things. Basically everything that government does would have to be only in English.

Without the law, billions are spent each year making everything from documents to education available in a multitude of languages.

I was watching this debate in the Senate on C-Span. Very interesting. Basically what Vbad says is about right except for a few things. It wouldn't "prevent" the gov't agencies from printing documents in other languages or providing bi-lingual education. It would just give them the "choice" instead of being mandatory.

Opponents were bringing up the potential result of this action. When non-english speaking immigrants arrive they must go through a period of transition until they learn English, which everyone agreed needs to be learned to function in American society. One of their main issues was how does the government help to transition these new citizens. Do they provide interpretors for them instead of paperwork? English lessons? Or do nothing. The immigrant would provide their own interpretor (family, friend) and learn English on their own.

Again, this law would only make it an option to print documents or provide services in other languages. Localities could provide that depending on their populations. It only changes the bottom line by not making it MANDATORY anymore.

[seedyonenyc]

I still don?t see how this is an issue.
It is indeed true, that to maximize ones position in any country, one must speak the language, with out a doubt. Why not let the market decide?

Why is the party of small government fostering this so called debate? (Using racism to play to their base)
Why take the matter out of the hands of the local populace? (Big government)
Are we so insecure as a people not to allow the ?market forces? dictate how business is transacted? (Hypocracy)

This doesn?t work for those that are afraid that the numbers of the minorities are outpacing what was once the majority. (Racism)

Those that are better educated in their homeland or come from Europe will have a huge advantage. (Racism)

No matter how I look at it I see racism & hypocracy

By removing the mandatory requirement for the government to provide multilingual services diminishes the possibilities of those that have been enticed to our shores to be exploited.

Alexis, in the countries that you cited, do you know how many of those are legislated decisions or how many have just evolved as a matter of coarse?

I think what dictates dialects are the numbers & position of the segment of population that use it. I put forward the observation that my local ?bodega? (a non English word that most New Yorkers understand) is owned & manned by men from Yemen, where the ?official? language is Arabic. They all speak enough English to get by & appear to know much more Spanish than I do. And what was their motivation? The market. I?m sure they would be speaking Martian if it would improve sales.

I would like to propose that learning a second language be made mandatory in our public education system. Maybe that would help rid us of these provincial notions.

CD

[vbad]

Thanks for the corrections LTR. Seedy, I don't know if I'd be quite so quick to call it racism and hypocrisy. I'm not sure that's what it is. I think there's a legitimate concern about integrating immigrants into our society. I think a lot of people feel it's gotten out of control and now they're looking to find a quick fix. And as we all know quick fixes aren't always well thought out. But on the other hand - just because it's a "quick fix" doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong either.

I am personally torn. I don't really have a problem with a law saying English is the official language, because as LTR informed us - it's not really going to have that much effect. But I think the biggest effect it will have is it will give newly-arrived immigrants an additional incentive to learn English - better.

I'm frankly fed up with retail help that can't speak enough English to even do their jobs. Why they put people who don't speak a lick of English on the front lines to work with customers is beyond me. I called the dry cleaners the other day to request a pick up of some clothing. When the guy arrived I told him "these shirts for dry cleaning, and these - regular". He then pointed to the correct shirts and said "dry cleaning", and the other set of shirts and said "regular". I said yes.

I always test them to make sure they confirm that they understand me. And he didn't have any problem with that. Then I said, "I need these back tomorrow afternoon." He then looked at me and said, "okay, tomorrow after 5".

The next day when I called they said they wouldn't be ready until "tomorrow" - i.e. one day late. I said I specifically requested for them to be ready today and they said, "no, the guy marked them for tomorrow."

We then got into a bit of an argument about it. The upshot was - they blamed his lack of English for the problem. (theirs wasn't much better)! But I told them he clearly understood me, because he repeated to me what I had said. She just said "no, he did not understand." I think he understood and just made a mistake. But in many cases they really don't understand.

I spent 2 minutes on the phone with the deli recently ordering a "jar of peanut butter". They guy had no idea what "jar" was and he wasn't too swift on "peanut butter" either!

It was really madening. "Ok, 'bottle' of peanut putter". "Oh, bottle, yes bottle. I understand now. So bottle of what?"

I think the rest of America has just begun to experience these frustrations that we in NYC have always lived with, as more non-English speakers move out into the hinterlands. And I think they're getting fed up with the frustrations of it. It's something New Yorkers will put up with, but not something the rest of America would so easily put up with.

It's possible some racism is involved, but that's a pretty heavy charge, when there are surely other legitimate reasons why people might want to see such a law passed.

I tend to lean pretty much toward alexismckinnon's approach. I don't really care what people speak. But there should be a "public" language that all Americans are required to know and use whenever they're not around "their own".

[seedyonenyc]

V;
I agree with Alex & yourself, but I just don't think that you can legislate something like that.

As for your frustration in doing business, again you are not alone. I am willing to bet that most of the people that you mention are undocumented workers that the business owner is more than willing to have as 'just a warm body' doing what they can. It's up to the consumer to protest with their wallets by not going back. If a businessman thinks they can 'just get by' in a service business, they should be proven wrong.

Let the marketplace speak up.

Don't get me wrong here, I don't blame the delivery guy for taking the job & trying to fake it, we all have in some way or another been there, but we should take the owner to task & tell them in no uncertain terms that if their is one more error made from a failure to communicate, you will hold them, the owner, responsible by taking your custom elsewhere.

The bottom of the ladder guys would have to adapt or not get the work, which would give them better language skills thereby increasing their value in the marketplace. Win, Win & Win.

It's up to us to demand a higher standard because the employer is going to only do as little as possible to get by. (Read Cheapest)

I don't expect every foreign born worker to learn conversational English enough to laugh at all the cartoons in the New Yorker, but they should be able to converse in the areas of importance in which they are trying to earn a living. That's not asking too much.

CD

PS For the record I proudly speak fluent English, American, Australian, Canadian & some Texan. :^)