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I need advice- (Chelsea / Best Friend)

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  • #61
    Re: I need advice- (Chelsea / Best Friend)

    No, she didn't seem to be in any rush to me to deny that gays have had an influence on Chelsea. She said MANY groups have had an influence. That sounds inclusive to me. Gays are of course included in that. And she didn't go into any detail on what she meant. So you are just hearing what you want to hear. And I think it's sad that "hate" seems to be what you want to hear.

    You seem to be denying that any other groups had any influence on Chelsea in the last 20 years. Which one might say makes you heterophobic! Or hispano-phobic. Or longshoremanophobic! Come on Chelc, no one here is saying that gays haven't had a big influence on Chelsea. But you seem to think that if any other groups are given any credit then that takes all credit away from gays. You seem to be saying that gays deserve 100% of the credit. And if I went by your reasoning then I would have to conclude that you are anti- any group that's not gay. Because you do seem to be in a great rush to deny that any other group has contributed to what Chelsea is today.

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    • #62
      Re: I need advice- (Chelsea / Best Friend)

      Originally posted by SNAP View Post
      RE: "I know the history of longshoremen, etc. But it's history; today this neighborhood has been rejuvenated because of what gays have done for the past twenty years or so."

      I'm confused here; are you saying that none of these people still live in the neighborhood or that they have lived here and done absolutely nothing over "the past twenty years or so" to make "Chelsea...what it is today"? How about the non-gays who've moved into Chelsea over the past 20 years or so - have they made no contributions? I'm not trying to get into an argument; I'd just like a clarification. Thanks.

      It's a very fair question. My initial response was because of the following exchange:

      Someone posted:
      >>>And just who do you think made Chelsea what it is today?

      It think it has a little something to do with them gaythssssss ... tsk, tsk, lisp, lisp <<<

      It seemed kind of funny - clearly a gay person poking fun at gay stereotypes and even adding an emoticon for comic effect. But it was also accurate - Chelsea TODAY (and I guess I'm talking about the past 20 years or so) is generally acknowledged by urban planners, demographers, etc. to have been transformed into a very desirable neighborhood because of the gay influx. There's a wide body of scholarship on that subject online on nytimes.com, and there've been several books written about the phenomenon, not only in Chelsea, but in other neighborhoods in other cities. I don't at all deny that longshoremen, warehouse workers and blue-collar workers are an integral part of Chelsea's history, but again I was referring to Chelsea today. Those people have died off, or followed those blue-collar jobs not only out of Chelsea, but out of the city.

      So, I was taken aback when that post above elicited this response:
      >>>But for the record (Vidis,) I take exception to your thinking, that the reason Chelsea is what it is today is because of one specific group or another. Chelsea is what it is today, because of MANY groups of people. You do not hold recognition (Group-wise,) to that exclusively. So, please get over yourself.<<<

      It bothered me because - in my opinion, and this is a forum for opinions - it was written in a style and seemed to betray a resentment that I, as a gay man, find troubling and that makes me feel unwelcome, especially since the explicit point was made that she was referring to a group rather than an individual. I found it to be an aggressive and confrontational response to something that was written in a rather light-hearted manner. In addition, as indicated earlier, gays ARE generally credited with transforming Chelsea into what it is today. Still, I would not have minded the tone or the content if it had been phrased as "yes, but let's not forget the XXXXX who contributed XXXX." Or something like that. But it reads to me as a simple "I'm not going to give gays credit for that when my family has been here for four generations." It came across as very angry and resentful, and I felt and still feel that there was some latent, unrecognized homophobia involved.

      I thought the tone betrayed a pernicious hostility that any member of a minority group is familiar with (and I am both a gay man and a Latino - I was born in Cuba and Spanish is my first language). It's also a hostility that is common in neighborhoods that have undergone such changes. I don't think it changes anything to turn a blind eye to it, or give someone the benefit of the doubt. As Jonathan pointed out to someone here, sometimes it's important to see yourself as others see you. That's the only way to ever examine it, and examine ourselves. I don't think knee-jerk denials or defenses of it really do anything to address it, or, more importantly, change it. For instance, I see that I am coming across to some as someone who is quick to see hatred or call someone a name. I don't see it that way, but I also accept that others' perception is my reality, and that I apparently need to do a better job of making my point without seeming to fan flames. But that does not change my underlying point, or change my opinion.

      I realize I've been very wordy here, and that's because I was trying to shed light on what I was saying and why I was saying it. I could answer some of these other posts one by one, but that seems fruitless. I think I've stated my opinion and the thinking behind my opinion. Others are free, of course, to rebut or contradict that as the see fit, or to simply use the "Ignore" function.

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      • #63
        Re: I need advice- (Chelsea / Best Friend)

        Chelc, I gotta hand it to you - THAT was a really nice and decent response. You explained what you felt and didn't lash out at anyone - or call them names or really exhibit any hostility. And because of that I actually read what you had to say with interest and with empathy.

        I still basically disagree with your take on ChelseaChick's statement, but at least I appreciate the way you explained it this time! I think we should probably give the benefit of the doubt to anyone who has chosen to live in Chelsea on how they feel towards the gay community. People don't usually choose to live among people they hate. You don't see a lot of white supremacists living in Harlem. I don't think CC has anything against gays at all. I just think she was fed up with Vidis for acting like he "owns" everything! A sentiment I must say I sometimes share! (Sorry Vidis, I still love you man)!

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