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    Has anyone noticed the Police State that occupies 21st street between 5th & 6th Ave on weekends? They actually shut down the entire block, and staff the place with cops and vehicles, including mounties. Not only is this a very freaky inconvenience to have a whole block of the neighborhood shut down and covered in cops, but it appears all this is coming at taxpayer expense, benefitting these ridiculous night-clubs who should be paying for their own security!

    As a long time resident and business owner in the immediate neighborhood, I find the whole thing infuriating. Bloomberg should NOT be letting these nasty places get a free ride on taxpayer security, from thugster destination Duvet, to the vile 'Porky's' where throngs of 'Animal House' trash from Staten Island and Larchmont descend on the block to be disgusting, to this new 'Citrine' with it's 9' tall bouncer and velvet ropes clogging the sidewalk, doing the bigotted 'selection' of who looks good enough to get in, etc (so 80's... amazing people still line up for this stupidity, like it's really so cool to be 'chosen' into some sleazy bar to pay $10 beer?).

    With all the retail closings of all the really great stores of Chelsea, one can only hope these rowdy places that really do deserve to disappear actually bite the dust, but not likely.

    I propose this letter to the hideous clubs on 21st street:


    Exactly why do you and your colleagues get to close down 21st st. every Friday & Saturday PM at taxpayer expense? Are you PAYING for all this extra police protection? Are you PAYING for use of the sidewalk so you can have your absurd theatrics with the 8' tall bouncer, the velvet ropes and the patronizing, pretentious, illegally selective bigotry as to who gets in while hundreds are left to clog the street with the crowds of the rejected?

    Your requirement that the street be shut down is a vast inconvenience to the neighborhood.

    Your requirement that the city hire huge numbers of police with vehicles and horses to police a street which YOU should be paying to police, amounts to a tax on the rest of us who are paying for this.

    Citizens deserve an explanation as to how you feel you are justified in requiring 21st street to be shut down at public expense because of unruly crowds that your tasteless, obnoxious business attracts.

    You need to supply the other residents of the community with an explanation, and a list of what you are doing to reimburse the city for the vastly expensive services your establishment requires, and how you are remunerating the neighborhood for the inconvenience of closing down a whole block, and forcing a police-state on 21st St. every weekend.

  • #2

    Frankly, I find your use of the term "police state" to be an insult to the 100s of millions who have died, have been tortured, and worse under the rule of actual police states.


    • #3

      Really? Hyperbole offends you that much...

      Indeed I had just returned from the UFPJ demonstration on Wall Street against the illegal US wars abroad, on MLK remembrance day, and part of my diatribe last night to the party-crowd was that nobody showed up, and these posers were out pretentiously playing in clubs.

      So... WHERE WERE YOU?? In fact where are all of you, paying absurd rents for your glass Chelsea duplexes while a million Iraqis died at your behest?? As El Salvador finally elects a member of the FMLN, where the hell were YOU when YOUR GOVERNMENT with its SOA promoted and sponsored one of the epic, most violent police states ever invented??

      You know what offends me? HYPOCRITES, FAKE LIBERALS, & SELFRIGHTEOUS FOOLS who participate in the police-states this country promotes, while doing not a single thing about it.

      Be not so snarky when your Zionist apologist Bloomberg (yes, Gaza is a US sponsored POLICE STATE) puts cops with automatic weapons in mass deployment in your neighborhood. You should be concerned, instead you are a pawn of the very police state you claim to decry.

      SHAME ON YOU for patronizing me while doing nothing. Instead of snarkily snobbing at me, ORGANIZE the neighborhood and DO SOMETHING!


      • #4
        Re: POLICE-STATE ON 21st STREET!

        Originally posted by JS View Post
        Really? Hyperbole offends you that much...
        Ask a black person about the "n" word... maybe you will get a lesson in badly placed hyperbole.

        Indeed I had just returned from the UFPJ demonstration on Wall Street
        A notoriously anti-Israel group. No I don't associate with them or their ilk. I try to stay away from all hate groups.

        You know what offends me? HYPOCRITES, FAKE LIBERALS,.

        Be not so snarky when your Zionist apologist Bloomberg (yes, Gaza is a US sponsored POLICE STATE) puts cops with automatic weapons in mass deployment in your neighborhood. You should be concerned, instead you are a pawn of the very police state you claim to decry.
        Do you actually believe this sh*t or is part of your journalism-by-mail course?

        Let's see .. you are "a real liberal," right? And with one sentence you have written off an entire groups of peoples... "trash from Staten Island", Israelis ("Zionist apologist...")

        I somehow don't think "real liberals" would be so happy to be associated wtih someone like you. However, other organizations that target entire peoples, like the KKK, might welcome your thinking. And besides Israelis and "Staten Island trash", who else should we hate? Here's a laundry let us know.

        - Drunken Irish
        - Money-grabbing Jews
        - Uppity Negroes
        - Filthy Chinese
        - Methodists

        You obviously have no clue what it means to be in a police state. You live in the comforts of the very society you denounce. Tell me you lived in Soviet Russia; tell me you lived in China. Tell me you have first hand knowledge of having lived in a real police state, or at least have a close family member who did and related what it was like to you.

        Just don't tell me you're from Livingston NJ and you feel a need to "shake up the world". And then let me know why, with this horrible police state we are creating, we have such porous borders and we can't keep up with everyone who wants to immigrate.
        You know what offends me? HYPOCRITES, FAKE LIBERALS...
        My parting advice to you -- don't get too close to a mirror.


        • #5
          Re: POLICE-STATE ON 21st STREET!

          Unfortunately, as an american, I've looked in the mirror, and find what I see unacceptable, as I find you. The problem with amerigoons, is they?d rather go to the club, or go shopping, than realize that 55% of their tax dollars (net of social security) are funding illegal wars and ?police states? across the globe, and have been for decades.

          As a jew, and in business, I defy your bizarre anti-Semitic indictment, and challenge your assumption that anti-zionists are anti-Semitic, etc.

          "trash from Staten Island", Israelis ("Zionist apologist..."), well not all S.I. folks are trash (just the republican part, lol & just those who attend Porky's), And in fact all israelis are trained killers by law. I've had various of them work for me, one completely PTSD for blowing off the head of a 13-year-old Lebanese kid, and one who was a special forces maniac who had no qualms.

          But we're not debating Israeli warcrimes, yet if you think using white phosphorous and DIME weapons on civilians is not a warcrime, you are sociopathically deranged. There is a reason members of Botch's admin are being pursued by Spain for warcrimes, and if you supported him, you are personally complicit.

          Point is, which you've not addressed, you take issue with the ad-hominem use of the term 'police state', yet apparently you, an apparent bush-voting FOX-watching conservative (am I right? If not, no matter to my point), fail to see that your taxes are supporting the very police states you decry, and that you apparently do nothing to stop it (dare you to set me straight on your activism in the name of peace, justice and the rule of international law).

          Answer to the fact that we defied the Geneva Accords and UN charter by invading Iraq, a nation of no threat to the USA, both in Iraq and Vietnam, and that your tax dollars paid for this madness, and that you not only apparently did nothing to dissent, but further apparently support these violent, illegal, war-criminal acts, while mocking my efforts to dissent the criminality of the US military, and while you mock my use of the term 'police state' when your mayor puts firepower on the street in force, blocking public traffic in support of private enterprise at our taxpayer expense. Is this the society you want to see in Chelsea? If so, you are your own worst enemy if police-states are in your mind a problem.

          You should know that control by force in the corporate interest is a hallmark of fascism. Since you're so concerned with the term 'police state', you should indeed be concerned with a fascist scene on 21st st, and you should dissent the passive acceptance of it.

          Last of all, what is an apparrent militaristic conservative, doing in Chelsea? Shouldn't you be in Greenwich building bombs to kill Hadji, or are you just here for the bar scene?


          • #6
            Re: POLICE-STATE ON 21st STREET!

            Will someone please tell me when the calendar flipped back to 1968? Like, um. time warp, man. Groovy. Can ya dig it? Now, if I can just find my Jack Nicholson football helmet and my tie-dyed shirt and bellbottoms...


            • #7
              Re: POLICE-STATE ON 21st STREET!

              Is THAT how you view the anti-war movement that helped bring a close to the horror of Vietnam, is THAT how you view the civil rights movement? Hippies on drugs? The problem is that you and your culture failed to act, you failed to dissent, and you allowed the killing of a million Iraqis with your tax dollars, while you went shopping. Is that really something to joke about? For shame.


              • #8
                Re: POLICE-STATE ON 21st STREET!

                QUOTE: 1 "...and in business..."

                2. " allowed the killing of a million Iraqis with your tax dollars, while you went shopping."

                Should I assume from this statement that my tax dollars paid for the war and that your's magically did not? Should I assume that you evaded paying personal and business taxes? Should I assume that, being "in business," you neither buy nor sell goods or services? You seem to be a master at making assumptions, so your advice would be appreciated.


                • #9
                  Re: POLICE-STATE ON 21st STREET!

                  Snap, indeed and of course I do pay taxes, and with-holding taxes for my staff, and property taxes, and escalations for my various landlords to pay their property taxes, and likely a far more painful % than Bloomberg’s wall street friends pay, hence his need to additionally tax the poor with fare-hikes to get to work, since working people all have to live in far-flung outer burros so all these debutante Sex-In-the-City wannabes can live in daddy’s condo near the clubs.

                  I gladly obey the laws, and as such am a model citizen. I employ people with products of my own design and domestic production, and many, many families have benefitted from my efforts.

                  While I may not be an investor-class capitalist, nor a wall-street shyster, I do believe in commerce, entrepreneurship, paying a comfortable wage, and that making a living selling one's wares does not need to involve personal and corporate profit at the expense of everyone and everything else. For 20 years, integrity in business has been both profitable and morally palatable, something the hedge-fund bankster gamblers should try sometime.

                  Unfortunately, however, those tax dollars were misappropriated for gratuitous weapons of war, and invasions of nations of no threat to us. Once again, many hundreds of thousands of innocents died for the acts of our military which we failed to effectively dissent.

                  It is nevertheless my obligation and duty to dissent our nation’s war-crimes, lest I, like you, become complicit. As Holocaust Survivor Eli Wiesel said, “while we may not be able to prevent injustice, we must never fail to dissent”. We must therefore petition, demonstrate, and use whatever capacity and means available to make ourselves heard, regardless of the overfed, indulgent, arrogant, consumerist culture we may comprise.

                  It is not my singular view that this behavior is wrong, likely by now a majority, and certainly there are laws, and if you believe in laws, you don’t invade nations of no threat, nor do you enlist to fight in such illegal invasions, since obeying immoral or illegal orders is disallowed by international law. But I've been trying my hardest to get across the entire time, while AEG (or should we call her AIG?) and a majority watched Limbaugh, FOX and voted for Botch at our mutual peril.

                  But politics aside, and back to the point: Do people feel it’s right that we should be allocating tax dollars to close down 21st street to support these clubs, or does the whole thing, the clubs, the cops, etc. bother anyone else, or is this just my private pet peeve?


                  • #10
                    Re: POLICE-STATE ON 21st STREET!

                    JS, first of all - everyone knows that being Jewish does not make one automatically not anti-semitic. I'm sure being Jewish you must have heard the expression "self-hating Jew". Or "Noam Chomsky" or "Karl Marx"! Or thousands of other examples of Jews who basically hate (are ashamed of) Israel.

                    I'm finding so much anti-semitism on the left. From the universities down to private individuals. I was talking to a liberal guy the other night and he sounded pretty reasonable until he got to Hollywood and he said "I'm disturbed that Jews, just 2% of the population control Hollywood." I looked at him and said, "are you serious?" He said, "yeah, I don't think 2% of the population should control anything!"

                    I was dumbfounded. I told him that was incredibly anti-semitic. I said imagine if I said, "I'm disturbed that blacks - just 12-15% of the population totally dominate sports - and now they're even moving into golf!" He was visibly upset by that remark! But to say the same thing about Jews didn't phase him.

                    JS, you have also grossly mis-characterized the number of deaths in Iraq. And you have unfairly attributed them to the US when most of them are the fault of the Islamic-fascists terrorists who represented no one and were trying to take over Iraq against the will of the Iraqi people. By staying in Iraq, against the will of people like you, WE SAVED THEM FROM THAT.

                    You also purposely ignore the 8,333 monthly murders Saddam Hussen was responsible for during his 20 year tyranny. And you completely overlook the danger he posed to the world had he been left to stay in power and reassemble his WMD program after UN sanctions broke down.

                    You also overlook the fact that the Iraqis now have the opportunity to live in freedom with democratic representation in their government. This will help raise the poor out of poverty, provide opportunities for the young and be the start of a modern healthcare system that will SAVE MILLIONS of Iraqi lives. There are always two sides to every story. You have purposely ignored the other side. And you also overlook the fact that Iraq is now a middle eastern state with close and friendly ties to the US.

                    And the last thing you overlook, is the fact that judging by your comments here, if you controlled New York city, YOU WOULD RUN IT AS A POLICE STATE! There would be no more fun allowed. No more nightclubs, no more bars. No more anything YOU DON'T LIKE! I'm glad you're not in charge.


                    • #11
                      Re: POLICE-STATE ON 21st STREET!

                      (I am SO staying out of this political discussion...)

                      For the matter of the police on 21st: They do the same thing on 28th between 10th and 11th, and in Times Square, and in a lot of the heavily-trafficked tourist areas, and anywhere else where large numbers of people gather. It's their job to be there. I honestly PREFER to see a lot of police around the clubs; it cuts down on the violence and criminal mischief, and makes it easy for them to intervene in situations that might get out of control.

                      There's no doubt that the clubs can make life unpleasant for those who live around them, but there isn't a lot that is going to be done about them. The only way to really shut these places down is to get the zoning changed (not a prayer in Hell of that happening) or to hope they go out on their own (which given the shelf life of clubs, is possible, but they could always be replaced). If the clubs ARE to exist, I'd rather have the police presence there to handle them. You probably have much less of a chance of being mugged or accosted by a drunk clubgoer if there's a mountie there.


                      • #12
                        Re: POLICE-STATE ON 21st STREET!


                        Last place I thought I'd find a bunch of closet limbaugh-lovers was in Chelsea... Can't say if I were you I'd be too proud of your legacy of Botch, undoubtedly you love the mess we're in at your party's right-wing behest. But apparently ‘conservatives’ are shown clinically to have a brain-disorder where they are unable to change and adjust and correct their concept.

                        To be an 'anti-Semite' you'd need to have a problem ethnically with jews.
                        I have no such ethnic issues with descendants of jews. My problem is with the politics and policies of israel. There's a difference, and for you to conflate the two is to abuse the memory of those who did suffer under anti-semitism. I can think of no more irresponsible concoction than to say if you don’t agree with the politics and policy of a nation, that you are therefore ethnically bigoted against the ethnicity of that nation. You are trying to disarm dissent with the terrorism of tribal loyalty.

                        I hope you can see the obscenity of your claim, unless you’re one of those who think jews can do no wrong, and if so, you’re sort of a herrenrasse, an advocate of the ‘master-race’ and the ‘paterland’, only from the jewish point of view instead of the nazis.

                        You should be profoundly ashamed, particularly because you apparently excuse Israeli atrocity and refuse to dissent warcrimes regardless of who carries them out, such as those being perpetrated by your own government.

                        IMO, It is the epitome of arrogance that you feel that jews have the right to plop a militarized state of fanatically religious, patriarchal, arrogant trained goons in the middle of the desert at the expense of the indigenous population, after having been legitimately kicked out of there a couple of millennia ago. We have plenty of vacant desert for them right here in Nevada if observant jews want to congregate like mormons, and then we wouldn’t have to deal with reading about the endless tragedy in Israel/Palestine decade after dacade, when there really are international issues worthy of our attention.

                        So you support Israel and its DIME weapons, and its US backed militarism because of scripture? If so, I'd say then that you are dangerously superstitiously deranged. Cultists kill for dogma.

                        Anyone who feels that scripture allows them to arm and kill in defense of their bizarre superstitions is sociopathically sick, and no better than the suicide bombers and their virgins and dates.

                        (particularly slimy are the zionists who accept the funds of protestant Hagee-ite dispensationalists, who support Israel in pursuit of the second-coming and the rapture, in which the jews are incinerated along with the rest of the ‘heathens’, that whole dynamic is quite psychotic-- but you love their AIPAC money, dontcha? Not a fine reflection on exactly the sleaze our culture seems to be famous for, but I blame the Israelis less than the red-stated mega-churched creationist end-times cultists long before I’d blame the Israelis for that one…).

                        But that's not the point, and no i don't advocate regulation by force (which is what you are advocating by saying 'fun' needs to have streets closed down and guarded by cops, and Israelis get to settle Palestine illegally under protection of tanks).

                        So, this is it, even the city of NY is infested by Billo-watching, limbaugh-loving militaristic arrogant, fascist-apologist, bush-voting neocon republicans who believe the invasion of Iraq was a good thing, and that Rambo needs to go back and finish job in Vietnam, and that we should nuke Iran, and that we were right to subjugate Latin-American by force at the expense of the democratically elected governments there, promoting genuine torture and police-state mass-murders there in the name of amerigun ‘democracy’.

                        Was not Vietnam enough illegal gratuitous war for you people? And do you really need an obnoxious lounge which segregates based on looks, under the watchful eye of dozens of cops to have 'fun'?

                        It appears a 'police state' is exactly what you want, I think you've answered the question.

                        I have one question for you, which to date none of you Coulter-kissing creationists ever have answered: If you are so scared of Iran and Arabs in general, explain, for once and for all, why we overthrew the model democracy in that nation built by Mossadeq in 1954, installing the abusive dictator of the Shah, ultimately bringing on the Mullahs-- could it be that your illegal meddling might just be doing vastly more harm than good? Or how about your support of the Vietnam war, resulting the illegal carpet-bombing of Cambodia and the resultant ascendancy of Pol Pot?

                        If you have no answer for the Mossadeq question, you simply have nothing to say, and no defense whatsoever for the gratuitous meddling your militarism promotes. You need to admit that ‘police states’ where you rule the world at the point of a daisy-cutter bomb, is exactly the sort of society you crave.


                        • #13
                          Re: POLICE-STATE ON 21st STREET!

                          Thanks Alexis for your insight.

                          I find this particular group of clubs on 21st st. truly obnoxious, but like you say, perhaps they'll close down eventually. Indeed there is need for the cops, people have been shot, stabbed, raped around Chelsea clubs. I'm amazed people patronize them, it's not 'fun' to subject yourself to 'selections' by bouncers, it's IMO pretentious.

                          But all that aside, I strongly feel that the clubs should be paying for their protection. If they are running businesses that attract alcohol, drugs, violence and assaults (some 'fun', eh Tarmil?), then they need to be additionally taxed for the extra protection they require. It is unfair to the rest of retail and restaurants to have these clubs get extra taxpayer support.

                          This is, after all not a tourist monument, these are private businesses, and they are apparently being supported by public money. How many other restaurants would like the option of having the street closed to traffic, and to get to spill their operation out onto sidewalks free of charge so people can more easily patronize their establishments?

                          It's one thing to have obnoxious, discriminatory clubs with nothing to offer culturally, but then to support them with city tax dollars, while raising subway fares? Outrageous.

                          Tramps was the first club on that block, and you could see Little Richard rip up the piano live in there! Dive as it was, Tramps was a cultural asset, not a discriminatory, disgusting lounge of no cultural value to the neighborhood (or anything else), yet tramps didn't attract violent sleaze like P-Diddy's miserable thug-life oufit draws, and the absurd Citrine, where 'america's top model' wannabes are discriminated against by a 9' tall steroid induced bouncer.

                          If they are to exist, then these clubs must be mandated to re-pay us a premium for the tax dollars we pay to keep them safe.

                          Does anyone agree?


                          • #14
                            Re: POLICE-STATE ON 21st STREET!

                            That sort of stereotyping reminds me of a scene from a classic -- and now 50 years old -- movie: A Summer Place, when Molly's (Sandra Dee's character) mom rants to her husband about seeing Molly kiss Johnny (Troy Donahue), Molly's father calls his wife out on her prejudice & stereotypes:

                            Helen Jorgenson: Well, your daughter didn't waste any time. She's let that boy kiss and maul her her very first night here.

                            Ken Jorgenson: Where were they?

                            Helen Jorgenson: Down below me, in the garden.

                            Ken Jorgenson: If they had anything to hide, you think they'd do it right under your window?

                            Helen Jorgenson: Are you defending her cheap behavior?

                            Ken Jorgenson: Cheap? A girl kissing a boy in the moonlight? You know Molly's as decent as this boy seems to be.

                            Helen Jorgenson: [really angry now] No decent girl lets a boy kiss and maul her the very first night they meet! I suppose it's your Swedish blood in her. I've read about how the Swedes bathe together and...and have trial marriages and free love. I've read all about that. Anything goes.

                            Ken Jorgenson: [angry and disgusted] So, now you hate the Swedes. How many outlets for your hate do you have, Helen? We haven't been able to find a new house because of your multiplicity of them. We can't buy near a school because you hate kids. They make noise. And there can't be any Jews or Catholics on the block, either. And, oh, yes, it can't be anywhere near the Polish or Italian sections. And, of course, Negroes have to be avoided at all costs. Now, let's see: No Jews, no Catholics, no Italians, no Poles, no children. No Negroes. Do I have the list right, so far? And now, you've added Swedes. And, oh, yes, you won't use a Chinese laundry because you distrust Orientals. And you think the British are snobbish, the Russians fearful, the French immoral, the Germans brutal, and all Latin Americans lazy. What's your plan? To cut humanity out? Are you anti-people and anti-life? Must you suffocate every natural instinct in our daughter, too? Must you label young love-making as cheap and wanton and indecent? Must you persist in making sex, itself, a filthy word?


                            • #15
                              Re: POLICE-STATE ON 21st STREET!

                              Relevance? How does questioning whether private business has the right to require public protection at public expense have to do with old films about 50?s conservatives being antisemitic against Swedes?

                              What about the point. Not a single reply answers that.

                              I think it's relevant, but maybe you think the cultural pinnacle of NYC is tasteless clubs that are so out of control that they require police to shut down the street, and so important to the culture of Manhattan are these kind of establishments, that you'd approve of us all chipping in public money for private cops (who should be out guarding us against criminals, not devoting free services as private guards at our expense)?

                              I'm curious if this town has really become a culture of sex-in-the-city consumerist shoe-obsessed republican cougars that lunch, who are only here for the retail and the bars and the clubs, and would pay for massive police-presence to protect their preferred establishments, or if there's an alternative view.

                              Put aside all this right-wing political conservative, bloomberg-loving, snarky co-op living, Wall Street-worshiping anti-progressivism that seems to have seeped into the minds of Manhattanites for a moment, and answer this like serious citizens of a tax-paying community:

                              Should we be spending public money on private guards to benefit independent business, while at the same time raising subway fares and cutting services?

                              Y or N: