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  • #16
    Re: Obama or McCain?

    With all due respect Tarmill, and I'm certainly no expert so I might say IMHO, based on what I've read, the amount of potential oil available offshore and elsewhere in the United States is really not that much. And it's by no measure what we'd need to be independent energywise. What I think we must have is someone who can lead us to a different idea of energy production. It's all around us and plentiful, though the distribution system is antiquated and pretty much useless to deliver it over large areas. This is something Obama has spoken about directly. We also need to conserve more, but that's happening anyway, thankfully. The Earth can breathe a sigh of relief from this side of the Pacific (although I think we might still be number one in Carbon emissions so I take that back, but we're going DOWN). I think Al Gore's proclamation that we could be powering this country (not its automobiles, but its homes and businesses) within 10 years using alternative energy might be too optimistic, but I think he's right that it could happen eventually. Just for the record, I am not an Al Gore fan. And this alternative energy would produce a huge number of jobs. I really believe that. We've got to start doing something about this NOW. Of course, in retrospect, we should have been thinking about this 25 years ago, so Republicans and Democrats are both to blame. But I don't hear much from the Republicans about alternative energy. Though maybe you can point me in the right direction to find that info. I find it worrisome, though, more worrisome than "terrorism." This is a national security matter and for that reason, among others, Obama is my choice.

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    • #17
      Re: Obama or McCain?

      Oh. And that's an interesting and nerveracking website phtp2. The internet has made me more anxious than ever about this world.

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      • #18
        Re: Obama or McCain?

        Originally posted by W16thDenizen View Post
        Oh. And that's an interesting and nerveracking website phtp2. The internet has made me more anxious than ever about this world.
        W16th- I know what you mean about the website being "interesting and nervewracking", but for some reason it puts everything into a relatively factual perspective, which for me is a welcome change from blabbering commentators and their (I think) more nerve-wracking opinions and outlooks.

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        • #19
          Re: Obama or McCain?

          Originally posted by W16thDenizen View Post
          With all due respect Tarmill, and I'm certainly no expert so I might say IMHO, based on what I've read, the amount of potential oil available offshore and elsewhere in the United States is really not that much. And it's by no measure what we'd need to be independent energywise. What I think we must have is someone who can lead us to a different idea of energy production. It's all around us and plentiful, though the distribution system is antiquated and pretty much useless to deliver it over large areas. This is something Obama has spoken about directly. We also need to conserve more, but that's happening anyway, thankfully. The Earth can breathe a sigh of relief from this side of the Pacific (although I think we might still be number one in Carbon emissions so I take that back, but we're going DOWN). I think Al Gore's proclamation that we could be powering this country (not its automobiles, but its homes and businesses) within 10 years using alternative energy might be too optimistic, but I think he's right that it could happen eventually. Just for the record, I am not an Al Gore fan. And this alternative energy would produce a huge number of jobs. I really believe that. We've got to start doing something about this NOW. Of course, in retrospect, we should have been thinking about this 25 years ago, so Republicans and Democrats are both to blame. But I don't hear much from the Republicans about alternative energy. Though maybe you can point me in the right direction to find that info. I find it worrisome, though, more worrisome than "terrorism." This is a national security matter and for that reason, among others, Obama is my choice.
          Hi W16th... actually I agree with much of what you've said, although with a few little twists along the way!

          I do agree our current mess is attributable to both Democrats and Republicans. When Republicans held Congress they had an opportunity to lift the ban on offshore drilling and they didn't. Mainly because they were political cowards and they were spooked by Democratic threats to turn it into a huge political issue against them. What idiots! Why they fell for that I'll never know. But it's part of the reason Republicans abandoned them in 2006. We were pretty sick of them acting so cowardly.

          Let me give you some figures I found on how much oil we do have:

          **ANWR: 15 billion barrels
          http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs-0028-01/fs-0028-01.htm

          **Outer Continental Shelf: 85.9 billion barrels (conservative estimate)
          http://www.mms.gov/revaldiv/RedNatAssessment.htm

          **Outer Continental Shelf: 419.9 trillion cubic feet of natural gas
          http://www.mms.gov/revaldiv/RedNatAssessment.htm

          **Oil Shale: 1.1 TRILLION barrels (that's 4 times larger than the current oil reserves in Saudi Arabia)
          http://www.rand.org/news/press.05/08.31.html

          Remember, we currently use approximately 20 million barrels of oil a day in this country. So the above totals would give us something like a 250 year supply.

          On conservation, I pointed this out to a friend awhile back that conservation is somewhat already built into the economy. Since we all have to pay for energy, and since the prices are pretty high people and businesses really do conserve - automatically. Could we do more - of course. But a significant part of conservation and efficiency is already built in. And it's built in in a way that's a nice balance between conserving but also being able to use what you need. People and businesses can still function because they're not being limited in their energy use to some extreme amount (like Al Gore has called for), but they don't use an excessive amount of energy. In other words, we tend to use it efficiently. People don't tend to leave lights on when they leave their apartments for the weekend. In fact, most people turn the lights off when they walk out of a room, even if they're coming back in a few minutes. So a certain amount of conservation is built into the system.

          If you don't hear Republicans for alternative energy, then you're not listening to John McCain. (Not surprising since he hasn't gotten much media coverage until now!) He's all for it. Personally, I don't have a problem with alternative forms of energy. I mean, why not? I see no possible way using solar energy or wind energy or whatever else - can hurt. Well, except for biofuels which tends to compete with the food supply and takes so much energy to produce it's hardly worth it. Even Bush has pushed alternative forms of energy. So no, I don't see Republicans being against it at all.

          But we're also for oil because these alternative forms just aren't technologically ready for prime time. And it will be decades before wind or solar could truly become (if ever) primary forms of energy.

          In the meantime we have two fuels that are ready now. Oil and nuclear. Democrats are adamantly opposed to both - for what reason I cannot figure out.

          I'm for oil, nuclear, wind, solar and whatever else may come along. So I just don't understand why the Democrats are so hostile to the two forms that work here and now.

          And I certainly don't understand why they're so hostile to the idea of us using our own natural resources instead of buying it from the likes of Saudi Arabia and Venezuela! I just don't understand that. It's suicidal. They talk about how important energy independence is, but then they're against everything that could possibly make us energy independent. It's really weird.

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          • #20
            Re: Obama or McCain?

            I think there's quite a debate as to how much recoverable oil there is down there under the ocean. The amount of time before any of that oil starts flowing and reaches consumers is a very long way away, too (2030?). The sites you sent, 3 being .gov sites, are not totally credible to me. Sorry. I know that sounds paranoid. But I've got to say, you certainly do your homework. But nothing will change my mind about voting for Barack Obama.

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            • #21
              Re: Obama or McCain?

              Hey W16,

              You said in your original message the reason you weren't for drilling is because you didn't believe there was much out there. If I thought that was true I wouldn't be for drilling either. No one would. So the real question becomes - how much is out there?

              I do think it's a little paranoid not to trust these government figures. Is it because it's the Bush administration and you think they might be playing with the numbers to help their "friends" in the oil industry? If so, I'd only ask why would they do that? The less oil we have, the higher prices go. And the higher prices go the more profit the oil companies make. So if you think they're playing with the numbers to help their so-called "friends" in the oil business - I'm not sure I see how this would help.

              If they did open up these areas for drilling, first the oil companies would have to put in billions of dollars to get the oil out - something they don't have to do now when buying oil from other countries - then whatever oil they extract would have the net effect of making the price of oil go down! Therefore, they would have higher expenses and less profit. If the Bush administration was willing to lie to help them, they'd simply say there's no oil out there and Bush would have left the presidential ban on drilling in place.

              It is true though, like you say, that no one knows for sure how much there is. But those are the best estimates we have. And if you don't like the government numbers, how about the research from the Rand Corporation? That one talks about the 1.1 TRILLION equivalent barrels of oil that we have on land in the form of shale rock. That's the equivalent of 136 years of usage at the current rates! And the Democrats are currently preventing us from getting to that! And this shale rock is on land - like in Colorado - you can't have oil spills from "drilling" rock! Their reasons for not allowing it are just beyond me. There really is no reason not to mine this shale. It in itself could make us totally energy independent.

              On the time estimate, yes of course it will take a few years to get any of this up and running. But no one estimates 22 years for oil. They could have a significant new supply of oil coming in within 10 years. And if we had started this 10 or 12 years ago think how much better off we'd be right now. Why should we say no to it just because it won't help out by tomorrow? Don't we care about the future?

              Okay, so if you're not for oil, how about nuclear energy? That's something we could get up and running even more quickly - 5-10 years if the government got off its *** and streamlined the approval process.

              Here's my problem. The ability to solve our energy problems is totally within our control. All we have to do to solve it is to decide that we want to. We have the physical resources, we have the technological resources. But there's something emotional that is preventing people from wanting to solve this problem. And for the life of me I can't understand it.

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              • #22
                Re: Obama or McCain?

                Some of Sarah Palin's opinions:

                *Denying a rape victim the right to choose abortion

                *Prohibiting partner benefits for same-sex couples

                *The teaching of religious creationism in public school science classes

                *The banning of books from public libraries

                from http://site.pfaw.org/Palin


                Many people don't realize that just because someone is attractive and can give a good speech doesn't mean they're worth voting for! Kind of like when people were saying that Bush looked like a good guy to go out and have a beer with. Ha!

                Give me Obama and Biden any day!

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                • #23
                  Re: Obama or McCain?

                  Tarmill,

                  I started reading this thread and thought there was no way I was going to post. The thread started out as the usual NYC political echo chamber. It's a breath of fresh air to read your comments.

                  I am not in love with McCain and I find some of Palin's stands absolutely abhorrent but I am giving both sides due consideration. I am currently tending towards McCain, but more resigned to voting for him than anything else.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Obama or McCain?

                    How nice. It's the "usual NYC political echo chamber" when posters lean a different way than you do. I wonder if there is a better way to express your political views without denigrating those who might disagree, the way Tarmill has done and which you claim to respect.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Obama or McCain?

                      Originally posted by psammead View Post
                      How nice. It's the "usual NYC political echo chamber" when posters lean a different way than you do.
                      The great majority of the posters not only lean a "little" different than I do, but amost altogether in unison. Hence, this is why I call it an echo chamber. Too often when I talk to others in my fair city and they find I don't fall inline with the diktats of the Democratic party, they experience some sort of "shock and awe". And it's gotten a bit tiresome. So, no, I make no apologies about my earlier comments.

                      Now if you can find examples here of healthy debate between right and left, you will have me seriously rethinking my views. Usually I see a denigration of conservatives or an unfailing alliance to the Democrats. Until I see that change, I will call it like I see it -- an echo chamber. And if everyone were all in love with conservative viewpoints without considering liberal viewpoints, I would be saying the same thing. (And I have when in red states.)

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                      • #26
                        Re: Obama or McCain?

                        First let me say that I am not happy with either candidate. However, if I felt that the candidate not of my party was the stronger and better candidate for the job I wouldn?t be so rigid as to not vote for that candidate. But I have a great deal of trouble understanding why in the world anyone would want to vote for McCain after the most horrible eight years we?ve just gone through.

                        Am I not remembering correctly? Didn?t we get social security with a Democratic administration? Didn?t we get the G.I. bill with a Democratic administration? Didn?t we get the Great Society with a Democratic administration? Didn?t we get a balanced budget and a pretty stable economy with the last Democratic administration?

                        Didn?t we get a poverty population cut off benefits by the ?great communicator? who penned the label ?welfare queens? under a Republican administration? Didn?t we get single occupancy residents put out on the streets for the largest homeless population under a Republican administration? Didn?t we get the end to humane medical treatment with the introduction of managed care under a Republican administration? Didn?t we get the threat of privatizing social security under a Republican administration? Didn?t we go from a balanced budget to the largest deficit and the most unpopular war under a Republican administration?

                        I used to live in Stuyvesant Town which I consider a microcosm of what I see happening in our society. When it was a ?community? of middle class residents there was a wonderful small town feeling and a real sense of belonging. When Met Life gave over management to Insignia and Rose Associates we knew it was the beginning of the changes that were going to be made. It was being phased out as a refuge for the middle class and it was being prepared for serving the only people who could afford to live there ? it would become ?luxury rentals?. Even the statue of Frederick Ecker, Metropolitan Life president in 1943 when Stuyvesant Town was built for generations of New Yorkers to enjoy an affordable apartment, was torn down by the new management. Well, maybe now that Stuyvesant has become a public corporation the stockholders are being well paid off but at what cost?.

                        So you might read into this that I?m growing older and more cynical. But I?ve seen what has become of some of our institutions, our children, our ideals, our neighborhoods and even our most basic behaviors when government forgets it?s supposed to be of the people, for the people, and by the people...not just some people.

                        I?m old now so I?m entitled to look at the world from my own viewpoint and experiences. You of course are entitled to your own views and if you can offer a reasonable explanation why a Republican administration would be better if elected I?m open to consideration.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Obama or McCain?

                          I agree with you completely Magpie. I also live in stuy town for over 8 years and my husband there way before I moved in. It's just not the same but what is? I also worked for metropolitan life for 14 years and was lucky enough to live in stuytown while I was still working there. We started to raise our kids there until we moved to Penn South. What worrys me is that people who choose Mc Cain choose war and thats got to stop. Lets not play the race card. Obams may not be the best candidate but he's a lot better then his opponent and god that VP choice of Mc Cain is no Hilary

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                          • #28
                            Re: Obama or McCain?

                            Well said, Magpie- thanks! I totally agree with you, and am very happy to be a member of the "New York political echo chamber"!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Obama or McCain?

                              Magie,

                              DEBATE. A couple of things you are leaving out...and that's why I say this thread, prior to Tarmill, was not a healthy debate but just one side of the argument. Up to then it was everyone saying "Yay for Obama". if you want that, fine. But that's hardly a debate. I was just showing appreciation for Tarmill willing to stand up and take the arrows in her back.

                              Back to the things left out from your post: Under just one Democratic presidential administration we had the following occur: 21% interest rates, our embassy personnel held hostage for 400+ days with just a single attempt to retrieve them (and it can be argued this was the cornerstone for what would eventually cause the 9/11 attacks), and the demise of the one alternative energy industry that actually worked. (Back to 9/11, the successive administrations -- both Republican and Democrat did not reverse the damage under Carter, but this is where the first attack occurred and we didn't stand up to the Islamic fundamentalists.)

                              Keep in mind I am not saying the Democrats have not added to the health of the country. THEY HAVE!! I am, however, not buying into the monoculture of "Democrats, yes, Republicans no". That's what I consider to be unhealthy.

                              The Reagan administration, which you clearly disdain, also brought an unprecedented (at that time) span of economic growth and finally got us out of the malaise of the 70s (no thanks to Nixon).

                              WAR. Kennedy and Johnson brought you the Vietnam war. Remember the DNC riots of 1968? Those weren't Republicans that were being protested. Nixon ended the Vietnam war. The Korean war was started under Truman. And we still have troops in Korea to this day. My point is that war is _not_ the exclusive domain of the Republicans -- far from it.

                              THE GI BILL. A great thing.

                              SOCIAL SECURITY.
                              If Republicans had come up with this, it would have been called an "unfunded mandate". It's a controlled method of transferring money from the young to the old. Social Security monies are not invested anywhere. You want to use the argument you paid into it all your life? Actually, you didn't. You paid into Social Security so someone else could withdraw from it, but the money was never invested for you. If Roosevelt screwed anything up, he got this wrong big time. More on this below.

                              BALANCED BUDGET.
                              To the extent that on-book liabilities were covered, yes, you are 100% correct. But off-book liabilities, e.g., Social Security -- no they were not balanced and without privatization of social security or some sort of meaningful investment, no way will social security ever be more than a sucking black hole. People are living longer than ever; way longer than thought by the founders of Social Security. Tell me Obama will reform this goat and you will have my attention.

                              Why can all manner of pension funds invest in public and private obligations such as Calpers (http://www.calpers.ca.gov/) does, the New York State Common Retirement Fund (http://www.osc.state.ny.us/pension/index.htm) does, etc. In the private world, anyone found running a scam like social security is indicted for running a Ponzi scheme. Why when a state pension fund invests in private obligations is privatizing not a dirty word?

                              STUYVESANT TOWN.
                              I can understand your bemoaning what has happened here, but it is private property. Once we start dictating what people can and can't do with their own property (except for infringing on the rights of others), well, we might as well call it a day. If that ever happens to us in America, I hope I am not alive at that time.

                              HOMELESS AND SRO. You saw a lot of this in NY. You also need to thank the "mental patient advocates" who overrode the decisions of doctors (and continue to do so) and a state government that was looking for savings. As far as I recall, this was not a federal issue.

                              MCCAIN VS OBAMA. I will tell you what I have a hard time doing. I can't tell you McCain would be a better choice. I am not happy with either. My point was the satisfaction of someone (anyone) having an opinion different than what had been posted so far. If someone had said "Obama is my guy, but he is dead wrong on...." I would have felt a bit different. I was remarking (remarking -- more than judging) the nature of everyone agreeing. The lack of a healthy debate. And I also hold myself somewhat responsible. I didn't want to post until I saw Tarmill's postings. When it comes to diversity in this town and the professed love for it, it usually doesn't extend to political divsersity (unless one includes all the forms on the left). If I made an error in my postings, it was my style, not my substance.

                              I don't have any illusions of changing anyone's minds. I do, however, like to see the other side of the coin in a debate.
                              Last edited by AEG; 09-08-2008, 06:09 PM. Reason: spelling

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Obama or McCain?

                                AEG, wow! That last response of yours was impressive! Very factual, on the money - and respectful of everyone else.

                                Originally posted by AEG View Post
                                Tarmill,

                                I started reading this thread and thought there was no way I was going to post. The thread started out as the usual NYC political echo chamber. It's a breath of fresh air to read your comments.
                                Thanks AEG... my feeling exactly! In all of Chelsea just two "not solidly Democrats" and we're already getting kind of attacked for being different.

                                Originally posted by AEG View Post
                                I am not in love with McCain
                                I agree with that!

                                Originally posted by AEG View Post
                                and I find some of Palin's stands absolutely abhorrent but I am giving both sides due consideration.
                                I have a feeling you and I might have a few more disagreements here. I say this just so people won't think you agree with ALL of my views.

                                Originally posted by AEG View Post
                                I am currently tending towards McCain, but more resigned to voting for him than anything else.
                                Same here.

                                Originally posted by psammead View Post
                                How nice. It's the "usual NYC political echo chamber" when posters lean a different way than you do. I wonder if there is a better way to express your political views without denigrating those who might disagree, the way Tarmill has done and which you claim to respect.
                                Psammead I really have to take exception with you here. You said I have "denigrated" those who disagree with me. I don't see that I have done that. I've made every effort to talk to you guys with respect. And I've made every effort to keep my comments on the issues and not get personal. So please point out to me where I have gone wrong and where I have "denigrated" those with whom I disagree.

                                And by the way, I've never known AEG to throw out personal insults to anyone here. He has been as respectful as anyone could be. So you twist his words when you claim he respects the "denigration" of others.

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